Those damned iconoclasts

[chargirlgenius]

I've long known that there was a dearth of 15th century English imagery. From my earliest days in the SCA, I was doing Web Gallery of Art searches, and feeling roadblocked when searing on England in the 15th century. Since then, I've learned that Flemish art and artisans were simply more popular. And then standing in the British Library bookstore, I was bemoaning the lack of information when a kind college professor overheard me and told me all about the iconoclasts.

Ok, so I can get behind the Reformation itself. But why, oh WHY did they have to go around destroying all of that art? Dang protestants. Oh, wait...

In any case, I've spent some time during the last couple of days looking for what I could find.

Broad categories:

-Effigies and Brasses
-English Carved Alabasters
-A couple of manuscripts at The Pierpont Morgan library: http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/BrowseBooleanCombined.cfm
-The Pageant of Richard Beauchamp, although it's unclear if the artist was actually English.

There are a few here and there, but does anybody else know of any examples? Places I should be looking? It's a difficult topic for the discerning 15th c. English reenactor.

In other, somewhat related news, I just realized that Tournament of the Lily isn't NEXT weekend, it's the weekend AFTER. That's somewhat of a relief. I've gotten so distracted looking for English sources (a good distraction!) that I've been completely neglecting making my hennin.

So many projects, so little time...

Comments

[tashadandelion.livejournal.com]

Your detective work has been invaluable for my Lily project. Thank you!

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

It's been a great exercise in finding more "English" sources, which I've always been lacking in. I don't want to make one of those hennins, at least not for quite some time, but there's so much I do want to do! I think for one I'd like to talk about the relationships between all of the styles.

[ladyaneira.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they defaced/destroyed a lot of English books of hours, too. :-(

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Grrr. Book burners! So, you don't have any little hidden 15th c. English Book of Hours info? Dang.

[ladyaneira.livejournal.com]

Oh, there are a lot that survive, actually. Something like 800 English BoHs total, scattered over world libraries. But keep in mind that the book trade was flourishing then, so just because a book was made for the English market doesn't mean that it was made in England. Many (most?) were made on the continent.

For BoH info in particular, a good resource is Eamon Duffy's "Marking the Hours: English People & Their Prayers 1240-1570." He's got lots of photos, but they are mostly of defaced pages--his focus on not art historical, but rather an examination of how BoHs were used in everyday life. I don't know that it would help you in your fashion quest.

[quodscripsi.livejournal.com]

It should be noted that Duffy is widely known as a Catholic apologist. While his scholarship is quite good his conclusions always have a pro-Catholic slant.
It should also be noted that iconoclasism is a halmark of radical protestants and not conservatives. It was one of the things that brought Luther out of hiding. One might even go so far as to say that he held iconoclasm to be more ignorant then then the use of icons or images.

[thornbury.livejournal.com]

November 14. And not a day sooner. 8-}

So many projects...

[noxcat.livejournal.com]

so little energy or inclination. (Time is adequate here.)...oh, and transportation limits the opportunities to wear said projects.

[duchesspadr.livejournal.com]

See, I knew it was that far away, and therefore have been procrastinating. Now I'm panicked!

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Two weekends! You can do it!

[salviati.livejournal.com]

How are you making your hennin? I'm trying to decide if I still have time to make one or if I should just bag on it and borrow Kat's. If it won't take too much time, I might be able to get it done. I really really really want a tall hennin! :-D

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I'm probably just going to do wire and buckram. I don't think it's going to be *really* tall - probably truncated to about a 2" diameter, maybe 18 inches long or so. And since buckram can buckle, I got some very thin balsa for a bit of reinforcement. I'm probably overcomplicating it, but I don't feel like messing with the weaving.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Oh, danabren suggested buckram and duct tape. If you were just doing quick and dirty... ;-)

[quodscripsi.livejournal.com]

There is actually a project to catalog all 15th century English book illustrations but I don't remember the title of the series. You also have stain glass, wood carvings, a few woodcuts. There is more out there then one would think it just isn't the cutting edge at the time so it has largely been ignored by art historians not interested specifically in it.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. There has to be more out there, but it's just not readily available. If you do remember the title, I'd love to see it.

[quodscripsi.livejournal.com]

An Index of Images in English Manuscripts from the Time of Chaucer to Henry VIII, C. 1380-c. 1509

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I've got to ask before dropping $87 on this book right now, does it include some of the images, or just an index? Not that an index isn't critical... It's just a matter of now or later.

[quodscripsi.livejournal.com]

It is not a buy book. There are usually a few examples but there are 5 volues so far. So it is much more of a some day it might be fun to go through if you really want to do some serious research time.
Luckily the current publisher is big in to academic databases so there is a good chance that at some point it will be a database although likely still without many images.

[siberiannight.livejournal.com]

Don't forget those damned puritan roundheads. Destroying art may only be a small addition to the laundry-list of Cromwell's crimes (murdering thousands of Irishman, dismissing parliament, religious fanaticism, general tyranny) but it looms large in my mind.

[strawberrykaren.livejournal.com]

Try using Corsair (http://corsair.morganlibrary.org) to search the Morgan Library, it's got more stuff in it. Good English manuscripts there include M.126 and M.775.

This search engine (http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/search2.asp) at the British Library will help you find manuscripts by country of origin and time period -- found quite a few from 15th century England, though not much that is actually useful for understanding 15th century clothing. Harley 326 (http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=7172&CollID=8&NStart=326) is kinda neat, and Harley 1766 (http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=8737&CollID=8&NStart=1766) too.

The Ellesmere manuscript -- see the bottom of http://larsdatter.com/chaucer.htm for links, etc. -- is early 15th century, but it's English.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've found quite a bit with Corsair. I have to get better at the BL search engine. I've found it mostly to be a lesson in frustration.

[strawberrykaren.livejournal.com]

The thing with the BL search engine is that there are several search engines ... but not everything is accessible from the search engines, so you kind of have to know which one to start out with to get to where you're going. :-)