Cartridge pleating and seam finiahing questions

[chargirlgenius]

Cartridge pleating question

I'm planning on cartridge pleating the sleeves onto Jeff's gown. I've never cartridge pleated before, though I'm sure I can handle it. I have a slight problem, in that the edge of the armhole of the gown was finished assuming that I would have a seam allowance (I hadn't thought about cartridge pleating when I did it).

I know that you're supposed to sew the pleats directly to the edge of the fabric. Is it worth me refinishing that edge (maybe folding it over, etc.) or can I pleat the edge of the sleeve to a arm hole with a seam allowance?

I'm also toying with the Elizabethan sewing technique of finishing all of the edges first. The sleeves are fully lined. I've sewn one of the silk sleeves shut, but I didn't finish the raw edges first, so I'm not sure if this is going to work. Perhaps I should have sewn the flat lining to the flat silk, first? I have another technique I'll probably do, along the sleeve length seam, at least. Stitch the layer of lining down in the ditch, folk it over, and then whip the other half of the lining down. As far as I know, though, this isn't documentable, but a more modern tailoring technique.



Brief explanation: The black lines are the silk, and the red lines are the linen. Stitches are left out. The two silk pieces are sewn together with a running stitch. The bottom (straight) red line is sewn to the silk with a running stich that comes out in the seam of the silk, thus hiding it from view. The second (top, bent) red line is sewn to the first lining, and maybe to the seam allowance of the silk, but not all the way through, with a whip stitch.

For the sleevehead, I might just sew the sleeves right side together, for my nice finished edge. I was looking at attack-laurel's description of the process, and she suggests sanwiching them together, right sides out, and doing a running stitch. Only trouble is, this is a significant curve, and I'm not sure how I can avoid seam clipping. Maybe it doesn't matter so much, as a good portion of the sleeve will be cartridge-pleated in to my armhole, but maybe there's a better way?

*sigh* I have lots of ideas, but so far, none of them are jumping out as exactly right, or right without any problems (self-caused or inherent). I'm open to thoughts from people who have used these techniques.

Comments

[reabhecc.livejournal.com]

The image didn't load for me, but I will say that if you are cartridge pleating, hemming the edge (by using the seam allowance) makes more sense than pleating with a raw edge. What you pleat shows. So, yes, fold it over. Will make the pleats pop more anyway.

On a side note, do you trim the lining on GFDs at the point where the gores start? or just let it hang down between?

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I had to hit refresh for the image to load.

I'm not going to pleat the raw edge. I didn't explain well. On the gown side, in the armhole, I bound the raw edge with linen, assuming that I would sew the sleeve on with a sleeve allowance, like I always do. If I have to fold the edge over, I will, but the lining is very stiff hemp and might be weird.

On the sleeve side, I'm trying to figure out how to finish the sleevehead edge (silk and lining) without needing to trim it. Maybe I'll double roll both edges and finish them, and then sew them together. A double roll is narrower, and frequently doesn't need clipping. Hmm.

[reabhecc.livejournal.com]

ah, okay. Well, then I have very little to say except that when I've cartirdge pleated with a layer of silk/wool blend and a layer of linen, I interlined it with felted wool to add teh springyness of cartridge pleating.

*pokes again about GFD lining*

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Oh! Sorry!

I usually line just to the hips. If you want to line lower, I would insert gores into your lining. If the lining comes down about 5" or so from the top of the gores, don't worry about adding them in.

[sskipstress.livejournal.com]

OK, this is a much clearer description.

On the sleevehead edge, I would trim the lining so that you get one fold from it and 2 folds from the outer fabric, folding both at the seam line and the outer fabric over the seam allowance of the lining, then stitch those down.

If you want me to draw that out, I can try.

As for the gown side, I'd probably need to play with it to see how best to not have the bulk of the hemp getting in the way of making an edge to stitch the pleats to. But chances are, I'd be grading the seam allowances somehow, possibly cutting the hemp at the seam and binding the edge of it with the outer fabric if the outer fabric is sturdy enough to hold the seam.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

But chances are, I'd be grading the seam allowances somehow, possibly cutting the hemp at the seam and binding the edge of it with the outer fabric if the outer fabric is sturdy enough to hold the seam.

That's what I wish I'd done. But I was thinking about normal sleeves, and that I'd need a seam allowance. I don't have that much time to work on this.

I have Saturday. I have to keep remembering Saturday...

The outer fabric, by itself, is not that sturdy. When I cartridge pleat, I have to make sure that I get the edge through the hemp as well.
Ah. Maybe that means that folding it is correct.

[attack-laurel.livejournal.com]

I see what you're thinking - the shoulder seam allowance was going to sit inside the sleeve, right? It might be possible to cartridge pleat the outside of the selleve, then sew the lining in on the under side, but I'm not sure how well that would work - my technique needs the armhole to be completely finished (folded under) before the sleeve is set in.

The sleeve, even with the curve, should fold under properly, unless your seam allowance is huge, in which case you might need to clip it, yes.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I see what you're thinking - the shoulder seam allowance was going to sit inside the sleeve, right?

Yes, the gown body is lined in very stiff and heavy hemp, while the sleeve is lined in a lighter linen. I bound the edge with linen, since the silk ravels so badly. I'll try just folding it under (and stitching it - it will definitely need stitching to hold it there) but if that doesn't work, I'll rip the binding off, cut down the SA on the hemp, and fold the silk over it to bind. Or even use a facing on the inside of linen, but it will look like silk to the edge of the outside.

Once I started looking at your CP article and others, it occurred to me that this just wasn't going to sit right.

[attack-laurel.livejournal.com]

Your solution sound like it will work properly.

The heavier fabrics might well have been bound on the edges for seing - like the edges of corsets. There's also a possibility that the hemp will soften and become more manipulable over time.

[sskipstress.livejournal.com]

I have found that working by hand and pulling the fabric, I can do a narrow rolled hem or a folded over narrow edge (when using fulled fabric or covering with a lining) quite easily. And in your situation, that's probably what I'd do with the armscye and the sleevehead, then I'd pleat them, then I'd whipstitch the two together.

Your lining technique is actually kinda similar to the 2nd-to-last lining technique here (http://heatherrosejones.com/archaeologicalsewing/linen.html#Linen) (gah, a click here, they're going to take away my web developer license)

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking I'll do a narrow double hem on each the lining and the silk, whipstitch them together, and then pleat them (and then stitch that to the gown).

I'm not seeing the lining technique that you're referring to. There are so many variations though, and so little that's documentable to this particular century beyond a straight up running stitch...

[sskipstress.livejournal.com]

It's the one labelled: " [finishing lining when fabric continues] Modified running stitch of (main fabric folded RST & lining single-folded toward fabric) (Fig. 57)"

[azpapillion.livejournal.com]

Why did you decide on cartridge pleating? Most of what i've seen is the knife pleats during the late 15th c.

Using the knife pleats allows you to easily finish the lining after the rest of the arm is put together.

I really don't think this should vary from how you line your GFD. The era is the same.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I don't really like the way that the knife pleats hang down on Jeff's gown. I want something springier. At very least, I'll do box pleats.

The knife pleats on Jeff's current gowns just don't look like the ones in this picture:


I also understand that many of the 15th century Italian people use cartridge pleating on the sleeves, and thought I'd see how it worked.

If you think about it, though, what is the era the same as? I'm basing my GFD linings on 14th century (and heck, a much older linen shirt!), and to tell you the truth, mostly unlined garments. With the dearth of extant 15th century seams, I'm open to the idea of experimentation. There's earlier examples of the finishing technique that Attack Laurel calls the Elizabethan Seam Finishing (I think they're Viking? - there may be others).

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

That is exactly the garment set my husband wants me to make for him-- though he wants black hose, a red silk twill doublet and a black wool pleated short gown. Since he's up and down ladders and stairs all day (and has been doing that for the last seventeen years) I can truthfully assert that I'm married to the Buffest Butt in California. And his legs are scrumptious, too.

I've been following along and I'm very much looking forward to seeing how your husband's gown looks, because up until now, the very idea of making one of these short pleated gowns has utterly baffled me.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Then I will try to post as many pictures as possible when I'm done, of the process, and of the detail. I think there are MANY ways that this gown can be accomplished. I have about four other methods that I'd like to try.

Poke me if I don't get to it quickly.

Do you have a doublet pattern yet? Are you doing the balled shoulders? I have some ideas on that...

[tashadandelion.livejournal.com]

Mistress Kamillah uses cartridge pleating on the skirts of her gamurras (you mentioned sleeves, but the skirts are where it really pops), and hers are the best I've seen out there, re-creation-wise in SCA-land. These are contemporaneous with your gown's time, so I think cartridge pleats are a viable solution, lacking absolute proof. (To me, "viable" is everything -- if you can make a reasoned argument and provide encapsulating evidence where absolute proof is scant, then you're doin' yer job to the best of anyone's ability.)

Can't wait to see your Ken Doll wearing it!

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I have evidence now... Most of the gowns in The Advocate have cartridge-pleated sleeves. ;-)

Actually, even though it's not "real" evidence, I got to see the idea implemented and it looks *really* good.

[mstra-margarita.livejournal.com]

I have dresses that I have cartridge pleated the sleeves on. I always finished the edge as it is neater, easier and faster.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I definitely have to finish the edge. This silk ravels like a sonuvabitch.

Are these Italian* styles?

(Yes, I know that Italian isn't the right word, but I don't know enough whether to say Florentine, Venetian, etc...) :-D

[attack-laurel.livejournal.com]

The seam allowance for the curved sleeve should fold over fine if you stitch it down to itself first (i.e., "hem" the raw edges). That way, it doesn't fight the fabric on the other side of the seam. I've done it on significantly curved seams with no problem - but it depends on how large your seam allowance is. I usually keep mine to about half an inch.

Cartridge pleating the sleeve in with the seam allowance should work - just fold the edge of the shoulder so that it is the finished size. I usually hem each piece before I sew it, though. But attaching the cartridge pleating works the same whether you hem the raw edges or not - just fold over the edges, and work the cartridge pleats along the edge.

As long as your raw edges are inside the lining, you shouldn't have too much of a problem with them - the problem comes when it's rubbing against outside stuff, and being given a chance to fray.

I'll check in later today to see if you have any more questions. :)

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

I usually go with a 1/2" s/a as well. I decided to double it over, especially on the silk. The silk doesn't give at ALL, and it frays like crazy, so I figured extra protection would help. As it happens, folding it over twice isn't really any more work than once. I decided to do the linen in the same way, as well.

I *think* I have my plan in place - thank so much for the insight. I'll be posting an update today, with more seam diagrams!

[attack-laurel.livejournal.com]

Cool - I will be happy to help, but I'm usually off-line after about noon (when I leave work). I'll check my home e-mail a couple of times tonight and tomorrow (I don't work on Fridays) in case you have a question you need me to answer.

[chargirlgenius.livejournal.com]

Thank you, so much.

I just posted an update. It's long and stream of conscious-y, but I think I learned something while I was writing. I think I have a path forward, but if you have ideas about where I'm going, I'm all ears.